May 06 2009
What Does Universal Healthcare Mean to You?
I don’t know much about the health-care system but I do know that I do not want the government taking control of health-care. Why would anyone want government to run health-care? Government is notoriously slow, inefficient and wasteful with our money!
Putting health-care under government control is only going to make matters worse not better! The thing that I see happening if government takes over health-care is higher taxes and a loss of incentive to develop better products. How is the government going to fund this massive health-care plan? The only way they can, by raising taxes.
As our population expands and gets older how is government going to fund all these people? As of right now I believe America has a population of 300 million people. In ten years from now the population could very well be over 400 million. Where does it stop? The only way the government could pay to keep up with an expanding population is to raise taxes.
Does this sound like a system you want to live in? Tax increases would become common place, which in turn hurts the private sector and jobs. Imagine a world where 30-40% of your income goes to funding universal health-care for people who don’t work or contribute anything to society. I believe there is a better way to reform health-care and its not through the government. If anyone has a dissenting view I would love to hear what you have to say about this issue. Having a debate will enlighten us all. I look forward to hearing from everyone. Here is a video of congresswoman (D-IL) Jan Schakowsky talking about President Obama’s healthcare plan for those who have not see it yet.
We can’t afford the price tag either. Great Britain and Canada have long waiting lines and rationing. Bureaucrats decide whether you will get your treatment. They say therre’s 42 million un-insured. First of all they’re counting 12 million illegal aliens. Then there are those who don’t want it.
vrajavala,
I agree with you. This public plan is far too expensive and will not work. I think that the government should stay out of healthcare. I think healthcare could use a reform but not a complete overhaul like Obama is suggesting.
You clearly don’t know anything about the issues surrounding health care in the U.S., or overseas for that matter. The United States pays twice as much per capita on health care as any other Western democracy, yet our cumulative outcomes are worse than all of them. Countries with single-payer health care programs spend less than 10 percent on administrative costs; the U.S. spends 30 percent thanks to all of the back-and-forth among providers.
Also, 46 million Americans don’t have health insurance, a situation not shared by any of those other Western democracies. Oh, and as for “government control,” most health care providers in such “hellholes” as Canada, France, Japan and Germany are private enterprise — only the insurance part is government-run.
The panoply of insurance companies in this country contribute to our outsized health care costs partly because of the community rating system, which allows them to cherry-pick healthy individuals and reject people with pre-existing conditions. In single-payer systems, there is no community rating — everybody is in the system from the start, which lowers the administrative cost of all that cherry-picking.
So what I’m seeing here is a lusty defense of the insurance industry, whose refusal to pay claims or write policies help generate the high administrative costs that inflate the prices of everything in our economy. Even the AMA has come around to the idea of health care reform; it’s time conservatives did too.
sal,
I never claimed to know that much about healthcare in the united states I was stating my opinion and I am entitled to it. You say that the United States pays twice as much per capita right? Couldn’t this be attributed to the fact that America is the biggest western democracy? Of course united states spends more we have more people…. Numbers can tell you anything you want them to do. I still believe America has a very good healthcare system. It could be reformed a little but it does not need to be overhauled.
Why is it the government duty to provide health care for all? This was not in the constitution now was it? We have made this far as a people without universal healthcare why start now? The role of government is not to provide healthcare… Why should I or anyone else have to pay for somone else’s healthcare that doesn’t work or contribute to society in a meaningful way? I’m sorry but I don’t feel that I have to pay for it. There are plenty of government programs that already exist to cover people w/o insurance. Why do we need more? When does it stop?
You failed to answer my question sal, with an ever growing population how do you fund this massive insurance policy for everyone? Its not free to cover everyone in the U.S., the only way that the government can do this is to raise taxes right? Like I said before where do you draw the line? Its eventually going to have to come down to rationing.. If you can give me an answer to this maybe I can take you seriously.
As for for overseas issues what exactly are you talking about? Do you care to debate me? Im more than willing to defend my opinions
Uh, when I say the U.S. spends twice as much per capita, that’s a number that automatically compensates for the fact that “we have more people.” Per capita means per person. If a Canadian’s health care is $3,000 a year, then an American’s is $6,000 a year. That’s the average across the entire population of each country.
It may not be the government’s duty to provide health care, but it wasn’t the government’s “duty” to put people back to work during the Depression or to address widespread poverty among the elderly by creating Social Security. But both of those things made the United States the country it is today. Well, today we have a situation where health care costs go up 7 percent a year but people’s average salaries have been stagnant for a decade. Health care bills are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy. If the government can put a dent in these problems, that’s as good as a tax cut.
Funding a major reform of the health system will SAVE money across the board. If you convert health care premiums into tax payments, and combine that with cost-cutting that gets our per-capita cost closer to other Western democracies, you may be surprised to discover that the overall cost of such a program will not be as high as the right wing thinks.
And I’ve got news for you — the United States health care system already operates under a form of rationing. It’s not available to 46 million people right off the bat unless they can pay out of pocket — that’s rationing. Your health plan at work makes you pay more or even 100 percent of your doctor bills if you “go out of the network.” Most health insurers have been brought up on charges for routinely rejecting claims the first time they’re submitted — that’s rationing. If you don’t have a health plan at work, you can buy a plan in the private market, but it will be damn expensive even if you’ve never had anything wrong with you — and the cost will go up 50, 100 or 200 percent if you ever had any kind of condition that might return. That’s another form of rationing.
By overseas, I meant you exhibited no knowledge of how health plan works in other countries even though you mentioned them as being inferior to the U.S. In truth, the World Health Organization rates the U.S. system below the systems of France, Germany, Canada, Japan, and the U.K. We’re rated no. 39 and France is rated no. 1, and its hospitals and doctors operate largely in the private sector — only the insurance step is run by the government. Do you have any idea how much money can be saved by simply having one insurance company for the entire country?
The typical belief in the issues with socialized medicine and single payer is based on old ideas about communism. The AMA was the biggest opponent and has created many of the incorrect stereotypes. Most other opponents are beltway types and research groups whose opinions are based on political expedience. Health care isn’t really a market anywa. The only people for whom health care is an “option” are single men between the ages of 17 and 40 or so, and that’s because there aren’t many health concerns for them, though they are often the biggest culprits of emergency room primary care and indigence, (I have no stats here but have heard it discussed). Big insurance is a legalized oligopoly with 4 or 5 companies carrying over 80% of clients and the rates are comprable among all of them. There is no choice in that equation.
Sal,
Just because America spends more money per capita doesn’t mean our system is worse. There are way to many factor that you have to take into account such as age, the number of obese vs. healthy people, the medications that people take… So if you add these factors in, yea maybe we spend a little more but that is more indicative of people’s lifestyle not the healthcare system in general. The only thing that your per capita number tells me is that Canadians might be a little healthier than Americans. This is not a reason to overhaul the healthcare system. Like I said before you can make number say whatever you want.
I personally don’t agree with past actions of our government. Maybe they thought it was right to intervene.. I see it as a expansion of government power. They just took advantage of the situation in my opinion. Social security is a joke if you ask me. The government doesn’t even have the money right now to pay for social security right now. Who knows by the time I turn 65 it probably won’t exist. If social security goes under. I’m screwed out of money that I paid in. I think I could do a better job at managing my own money. Just because social security is around today, it doesn’t make it a good idea. I think that opting out of social security should be an option for people. Let people decide they own retirement not the government.
The average salary hasn’t gone up because taxes are still sky high right now. This places an undue burden on businesses. Taxes cut into profit margins my friend. So if your not making as much money as you could you can’t pay your employees as much as they should be getting paid. This is the reason people can’t afford healthcare.
“Funding a major reform of the health system will SAVE money across the board. If you convert health care premiums into tax payments, and combine that with cost-cutting that gets our per-capita cost closer to other Western democracies, you may be surprised to discover that the overall cost of such a program will not be as high as the right wing thinks.” Don’t you think we are already taxed enough? Where would you cut these costs? Why is per capita so important to you? I think if people lived a healthier lifestyle you would see these “per capita” numbers plummet.
“And I’ve got news for you — the United States health care system already operates under a form of rationing. It’s not available to 46 million people right off the bat unless they can pay out of pocket — that’s rationing” Are you serious bro? This is not rationing.. Rationing is..”Rationing is the controlled distribution of resources and scarce goods or services.” (wiki) The fact that 46 million people do not have health care is because they either don’t have well paying jobs, homeless, etc.. If they have the money it is available.. so it is not rationing. It comes down to economics and taxation if you want to get to the bottom of this problem. The federal government is to big to fund. The only way that the government gets money is through taxes. High taxes penalizes the private sector where the jobs are. People don’t have jobs, they don’t get healthcare. So its not the “evil” free market healthcare thats keeping 46 million uninsured its the government. 46 million people uninsured keeps them on the government roll and loyal to democrats when it comes to voting time. The free market allows anyone who wants a service to be provided can get it. It is very open to anyone in my opinion.
“Most health insurers have been brought up on charges for routinely rejecting claims the first time they’re submitted — that’s rationing. If you don’t have a health plan at work, you can buy a plan in the private market, but it will be damn expensive even if you’ve never had anything wrong with you — and the cost will go up 50, 100 or 200 percent if you ever had any kind of condition that might return. That’s another form of rationing.” Your right on this point but they still have to run a business. If the person is living a unhealthy lifestyle and has an illness that’s associated with that lifestyle of course they are some healthcare providers are going to penalize you for it. I think a lifestyle change in America could go along way in the quest to reform healthcare. We agree that healthcare needs a reform but we don’t agree on the method.
On your last point. Yea I don’t know anything about overseas healthcare. I shouldn’t have made a blanket statement like that. I still think having choices on the insurance side of healthcare is good for America. If most of the cost is administrative and not the care itself. Why not just fix that part? I think a better flow of information between doctors would cut cost tremendously among other ideas. The idea of having a single payer though doesn’t sit well with me. America is the land of options and opportunity and I would like it to stay that way. If you want a single payer thats all you but I refuse to buy into the notion of a single payer system. I don’t think government could do a better job in my opinion.
AZ,
Simmer brah, you are missing the point. No one is talking about the “government taking control of health care”; you are falling victim to rightwing propaganda. That is nonsense. And this comment “Tax increases would become common place, which in turn hurts the private sector and jobs. Imagine a world where 30-40% of your income goes to funding universal health-care for people who don’t work or contribute anything to society”… Where on earth did you get such a statistic?? Rush Limbaugh? In case you didn’t notice tax increases are already common place. Dude those numbers are entirely unsupportable, come, come my brother try to be reasonable. That is simply inflammatory rhetoric and there is no way to support such a claim. For that matter do you really want to live in a country where citizens do not have access to health care? Come on brah. Have you been watching fox news? Stop that, I told you it will turn your mind to Jell-O. Recognize, the price of health care is presently hurting the private sector, they are paying more than is reasonable to insure their workers. Single payer is not about government control its about government replacing insurance companies, why should people be profiting on our need for coverage? It should be done as cheaply as possible for all citizens. Christ man this is the only industrialized nation on earth with out some form of universal health care. We are lagging behind the entire civilized world on this issue and it is greatly damaging our industry and our citizens. While other nations are benefiting from universal health care reducing the cost of health care for their workers, US companies are paying top dollar to insurance companies. The reason we deserve single payer is simple, DEMOCRACY! Most Americans favor single payer, most doctors and nurses favor single payer, and most health economists favor single payer. You know who doesn’t favor single payer? INSURANCE COMPANIES! Do the math brah. And try not to insult people who dont have insurance by claiming they contribute nothing to society. Some people work 2 or 3 jobs and still cant afford health insurance, you are being VERY classist. Not having insurance does not mean you dont contribute to society. ARRGH. I respect you brah but can hardly believe I’m reading you say such things. http://www.singlepayeraction.org/blog/?p=670
Dullahan,
I agree with your assesment of this situation, politicans will use any excuse they can’t get to gain more power from the private sector. Like I was saying in my past comments numbers can be made to say anything you want if you frame it a certain way. I agree that the devil is in the details. Most people in this country don’t get it, they are thinking with their emotions and not rationally.. They don’t see that having a single payer system is going to limit their healthcare options and how much healthcare that they can recieve. I for one do not want a system like this.
dsent,
Where have you been buddy? The 30%-40% was purely a hypothetical number, and was not based on a fact.
“For that matter do you really want to live in a country where citizens do not have access to health care?” We already live in a world where people some don’t have access to healthcare. I think we already have enough government sponsored programs for low income/homeless people that don’t have the resources to aquire healthcare. Why do we need more government programs dsent? Where does it stop? I think this is a perfectly reasonable question to ask.
“the price of health care is presently hurting the private sector, they are paying more than is reasonable to insure their workers.” You say that healtcare is presently hurting the private sector. I agree with this view but the question we should be asking is why health care is hurting the private sector right? I believe that we should be looking more at lifestyles, society, the fast food industry, our food supply, tv and advertising etc.. The healthcare problem is so much bigger than just who is paying for insurance. Healthcare cost wasn’t an issue in the past, it only started as the age of consumerism came to age. I think we need to look at ourselves more so than chaging our current system.
I see it as government control because they will get to dictate what gets covered and when… so if your say for example 70 and need a hip replacement the government might say that because you are 70 you don’t get the hip replacement. Who is the government to say who is and who isn’t allowed treatment for such a personal issue? If you think this isn’t government control please tell me how it isn’t.
How would a single payer system help our democracy? I am very interested to hear your answer. Ive never heard this reason before. How do you know that most people prefer a single payer system? Where did you find this piece of information? Do you have a link to this poll or website?
“And try not to insult people who dont have insurance by claiming they contribute nothing to society. Some people work 2 or 3 jobs and still cant afford health insurance, you are being VERY classist.” I think you were taking my what I was trying to say out of context. All I was saying is why should you or I have to provide for healthcare for someone who doesn’t want to help themselves? Most people that decide to be on the streets don’t care enough about themselves to make something of their lives, so why should I? Thats all they are looking for is hand outs. Are we a nation that wants a hand outs? I sure hope not. I didn’t mean to equate not having insurance with not contributing to society. Im just saying I don’t think our tax dollars should go to people that do nothing to improve their situation in anyway. Im not trying to be cold Im just being real.
I don’t think our system is as bad as people make it out to be. I think it needs some reform such as more transparent pricing of treament and digitization of medical records to cut back on admin costs.. There are other things we can do but to overhaul the whole system would be a bad idea. Overhauling the system would put alot of people out of work and we all know we don’t need that in this economy. A single payer system is going to grow the size of goverment. Government needs taxpayer money to survive.. There is a tipping point where the private sector can no longer support the operation of government because it is too big. I don’t want to live t see this situation happen. I say tinker with the system we have but don’t eliminate it. “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it” applies here. I think our system just needs a tune up and a complete tear down and rebuild in my opinion.
To insert purely hypothetical numbers is to insert imaginary numbers that have no meaning that is not an insightful way to approach issues.
Look, we are citizens of the most powerful industrialized nation the world has ever seen, and I think providing health care to our citizens is a fundamental. If you don’t think so I guess we have a much different perspective on what it means to be a citizen and what our rights should be.
You ask how single payer system help our democracy. Well to be brief when government reflects the will of the people that benefits our democracy, when government ignores the will of the people it undermines our democracy.
“Across the board, more physicians feel that our fragmented and for-profit insurance system is obstructing good patient care, and a majority now support national insurance as the remedy,” http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN31432035
You say
“I see it as government control because they will get to dictate what gets covered and when… so if your say for example 70 and need a hip replacement the government might say that because you are 70 you don’t get the hip replacement. Who is the government to say who is and who isn’t allowed treatment for such a personal issue? If you think this isn’t government control please tell me how it isn’t.”
Well right now if your 70 who do you think makes the call? It’s Medicare. Nothing about single payer restricts someone from paying for care out of pocket. (mind you I don’t want single payer, I want free health care for all our citizens).
When you say…
“All I was saying is why should you or I have to provide for healthcare for someone who doesn’t want to help themselves? Most people that decide to be on the streets don’t care enough about themselves to make something of their lives, so why should I? Thats all they are looking for is hand outs. Are we a nation that wants a hand outs? I sure hope not. I didn’t mean to equate not having insurance with not contributing to society. Im just saying I don’t think our tax dollars should go to people that do nothing to improve their situation in anyway. Im not trying to be cold Im just being real.”
Being real? By judging people you dont know… really
This is rightwing rhetoric, I’ll tell you why we should contribute to everyone having health care, because they are human beings and to judge that they don’t want to help themselves is arrogant. You don’t know their situation. Making blanket statements like that is the Neo-Fascist equivalent of the useless eaters position (into the ovens with them). For shame brah. You are judging people you don’t even know. Try work a week in a soup kitchen. For that matter who cares if mama doesn’t have her shit together, her babies are human beings and citizens of our country, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say we should not let children go with out proper medical attention, and again if you don’t agree I think we have a fundamental disagreement about what it means to be human.
Dsent,
Whats wrong with inserting a hypthetical number? I can’t give a real number yet because a single payer system doesn’t exist…. hopefully it stays that way. I think on this issue we are night and day on this. I strongly feel that healthcare is not a right or a service that is owed to us by the government. I am a strong believer in personal responsibilty and looking after oneself. These are the principles that I try to live by every day.
I think if we as taxpayers had more of our own money in our pockets, had a smaller government and a more effiecient information systems in healthcare some of the problems we are facing in terms of healthcare would not exist. We could afford to go to the doctor because we would actually have the money to pay for it. This along with a healthier lifestyle would solve some of our problems.. I could be wrong but this is just my opinion on this situation.
Excuse me for passing judgment on some people. I understand that people fall on hard times, I get it. But there are plenty of non-profits and a variety of governmental agencies that offer aid to people in need. Why add more red tape is all I am asking? I really don’t see the need for a single payer in my opinion. I agree with you that children need to be taken care of no matter what but where is the accountabilty for the parents that put children in dangerous situations? All I see is this type of system being wasteful and not very efficient.
AZ,
What is wrong with your hypothetical number is that it has absolutely no basis in reality it is just an alarmist figure that is entirely unfounded. If you don’t see how that is not a sound tactic, I don’t think anything I could say would can help you see how it is irrelevant. And you are right about one thing we are night and day apart on this, because as a citizen the 1st thing I want for my taxes is affordable health care. As it stands now parasitical insurance companies are making money off peoples need for protection from health care costs, that has nothing to do with “personal responsibility”. And insurance companies can make decisions about what care people get, and they do, I don’t see how that equates to personal responsibility. Furthermore I know many hard working people who are uninsured and unable to afford insurance. Even a dramatic reduction in their taxes would leave them with insufficient capital to afford insurance. Besides everyone wants less taxes, a reduction in taxes hardly provides people with insurance, 10s of millions of people are barely getting by, tax cuts are not a way to solve the health care crisis; no health care economists are arguing that position, doctors and nurses are not supporting that position, it is a position supported by people with a political axe to bring to the issue and it does not address the problems. It’s just complaining about taxes and then claiming with no support that it will be a fix to the health care crisis.
As I provided you with the link to demonstrate, most physicians feel that the present system is compromising the quality of care. I worked in the field of health care for 12 yrs and I know the attitudes of the people in the industry and most of them find our present system horrible. If you prefer to trust your own judgment; rather than professionals in the industry that is certainly your prerogative. I will take the opinions of experts in the field, call me gullible.
I regret to inform you that I find your perspective neo-fascist. In the same paragraph you say “you understand people fall on hard times…. Children need to be taken care of”, you then charge the parents with putting the children in a dangerous situation. So if you fall on hard times you should be held accountable for putting your children in a dangerous situation? Wow how you get there is beyond me. We are surely poles apart; I believe the purpose of having a representative democracy is to allow the will of the people to be expressed through government. I also think there is sufficient evidence to show that most Americans favor single payer/national health care and most health care professionals support single payer. Insurance companies are hard core against it and that’s why it’s not on the table. Again it is your prerogative to support the will of insurance companies rather than the will of the electorate and opinions of health care experts.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/03/opinion_health_care.html
National health care is a progressive idea that has steadily caught on in industrialized democracies around the world. The US is the only one that has not signed on to such a plan; we are slow to catch up. The US supported Apartheid until the very end. We are not a very progressive or democratic country, insurance companies have the power to thwart the will of the people and they are doing it as regards this issue. But eventually we will get a national heath care system. The support for one has been steadily increasing year after year as people become more informed about the issue. And eventually our leaders will be forced to respond to our demands. It’s beneficial to citizens, business and most health care professionals say it will improve the quality of care. So you can fight with the insurance companies to stave off the inevitable but it is inevitable, the people will prevail on this issue, eventually.
Respect
AZ,
I hope to share something with you I just saw on the news there was a terrific discussion about Single Payer it’s on Democracy Now. www.democracynow.org it is the May 15 show, if you don’t get to it today you can find it on their archives, usually a few days shows are on the main page. I hope you can find time to listen/watch the program. There is also a great interview with the renowned historian Howard Zinn, if you haven’t read Howard his “Peoples History of The United States” is what I consider to be history 101, well worth the price of a paper back. Check it out brah, the discussion on Single Payer will speak more clearly than I can.
Peace
dsent,
thanks for letting me know about democracy now. Ill check it out and get back to you on that bro.
daMit I’m stupid brah, it was the May 13 show… I’ve never been good with time hehe.. it was the day I posted the comment I listened to it just before I told you about it… sorry ’bout that
dsent,
Will you be able to explain to me how this form of healthcare will benefit people? For example a person with cancer? The gov’t is already slow. Don’t you think by the time they receive care they may already be dead? Just a thought.